Автор Тема: Цена на горива  (Прочитано 1772103 пати)

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« Одговори #255 на: 27 Април 2011, 10:33:31 am »
e toa so bagaznikot e pregolem kompromis ...

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« Одговори #256 на: 27 Април 2011, 10:40:56 am »
Posle 1000 km ocekuvam izvestaj kolku trosi plin + benzin na 100km i videa so meguzabrzuvanje na plin ;)

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« Одговори #257 на: 27 Април 2011, 11:04:05 am »
Багажникот е преголем компромис за возило ко твоето. Кај мене, во багажникл можам да ставам 10 такви резервни тркала. Всушност, вуферот ми зафаќа 2-3 пати повеќе простор одошто тркалото. Така да за низ Скопје и не ми е потребно да ми се мафта по гепек. А за на пат ако веќе ми загусти за простор ќе го мафнам вуферот.
Инаку веќе имам поминато 950km и пресметките на потрошувачката се направеени врз база на тие 950km и тоа нормализирани при полнење на истата пумпа прибидејќи различни пумпи може да имаат различни притисоци и да наполнат различно количество на плин(никогаш боците не се 100% полни.

Кога ќе имам време ќе направам меѓузабрзвуања. Во секој случај времињата во 3-та брзина и можеби во 4-та ќе бидат маргинално(до 5%) поголеми одошто оние на бензин. Едно поради тоа што на високи вртежи (над 4500) има маргинално послаби перформанси(Landi Renzo гарантира дека падот на перформанси нема да е поголем од 2%, со нашиов плин јас претпоставувам дека се 5%), а друго е тоа што имам бар 50 кила поголем товар. Како и да е, тоа се незначителни загуби на перформанси во специјални случаи. Поентата на плинот е економичноста, а не перформансите. А ако веќе сакам да ја малтретирам колата на висок обрт за да имам 100% перформанси на моторот можам да ја префрлам на бензин со едноставно притискање на копче.

BTW, дали знаеш дека ако вградиш плин во турбо-дизел ќе добиеш од 20% до 30% поголеми перформанси на моторот и од 20% до 30% помала потрошувачка на дизел гориво кое ќе биде надополнето со x1.2 количина на плин од онаа за која се намалила потрошувачката на дизел. Или грубо земено со денешни цени ќе добиеш 10% помал расход за гориво и 20% до 30% поголема снага на возилото во просек.
« Последно менување: 27 Април 2011, 11:11:59 am gOJDO »
Ум шо идит отпосле не јет ум!

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« Одговори #258 на: 27 Април 2011, 11:19:24 am »
Postapkata na LPG konvertiranje na dizel e otfrlena kako krajno neprakticna.

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« Одговори #259 на: 27 Април 2011, 12:59:38 pm »
Postapkata na LPG konvertiranje na dizel e otfrlena kako krajno neprakticna.

И јас го имам прочитано истото на еден енглески форум.

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« Одговори #260 на: 27 Април 2011, 13:17:24 pm »
Postapkata na LPG konvertiranje na dizel e otfrlena kako krajno neprakticna.

И јас го имам прочитано истото на еден енглески форум.

Непрактична во кој смисол?

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« Одговори #261 на: 27 Април 2011, 13:39:15 pm »
Сакаше да каже неисплатлива. Поготово неисплатлива во Англија каде чини од 3000 до 5000 фунти. Кај нас би била од 3000 евра па нагоре. За да им се исплати треба да извозат над 300000 километри на возило со просечна потрошувачка од 7 литри на 100km.

Сакав да му кажам на ЛошиПатишта дека плинот не значи деградирани перформанси. Во тој контекст има плински уреди за бензински агрегати со кои се добиваат поголеми перформанси одошто со бензин. Тие се уреди за директно вбризгување течен плин, но сеуште не се доволно усовршени за да бидат поуздани. Им страда пумпата за плин која треба да го испумпа течниот плин под голем притисок така што нема да испари. Кај нас сеуште никој нема монтирано таков уред, а на запад срамежливо се зголемува бројот на овој тип на уреди. Секако, примарен фактор е и цената која е минимум 2-3 пати повисока од класичните уреди.
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« Одговори #262 на: 27 Април 2011, 13:51:17 pm »
Can Diesel engines be converted to run on LPG?

There are currently two ways of using LPG as a fuel for a Diesel engine;

1. To truly convert the engine by reducing its compression ratio and provide it with spark ignition.


Lack of Spark Ignition

Diesel engines do not have this.

Spark ignition can be provided in several ways but they all amount to the same thing.

The most effective is to remove the cylinder head and machine spark plug holes into the places where the Diesel injectors were sited. This is only possible if there is enough 'meat' in that position. If not, the spark plug holes may have to be placed elsewhere in the combustion chamber. The existing holes for the original Diesel injectors may either be plugged or perhaps be used for direct LPG injection. Leaving the Diesel injectors in place would bring no benefit when the next factor is taken into account......

Reduction of Compression Ratio

This must be done before the engine could be run properly on LPG or Petrol for that matter. Diesels often run at a compression ratio of roughly 16-1 (one of the reasons they are more economical) whereas Petrol and LPG engines need a ratio of around 10-1. One way of reducing the compression ratio is to fit some form of spacer inbetween the cylinder head and cylinder block mating surfaces in order to reduce the compression ratio of the engine. This may present problems of gasket sealing because two head gaskets would have to be used. Another solution is to replace the original pistons for redesigned ones with different (deeper) crown depressions, addressing the compression ratio problem but now the costs are beginning to escalate, and it must be remembered that when both of these changes (provision for spark ignition and reduction of compression ratio) have been made, the engine isn't a Diesel any longer.


Design Limits, Stresses and RPM

Although the Diesel engine is relatively slow-revving and produces its maximum torque at lower RPM than a similar Petrol version, this is not the case when it is converted to run on LPG. The revised engine has to'rev' more when running on LPG because its maximum torque has been pushed higher up the rev. band. This can bring new problems of reliability and longevity. Even if the 'top end' of a Diesel has been fully reworked, the crankshaft, bearings and connecting rods (to mention but a few components) will suffer higher stresses at increased RPM necessary when running on LPG. Mechanical breakdown may result in far less time, whilst increased wear and reduced component life are certain. FinaIly, note that in all of the above cases the converted engine will cannot be a true Diesel or even a dual fuel engine as it will have lost its higher compression ratio and the means to inject Diesel.

Conclusion

The above factors combine (along with many others not discussed here) to make actual conversion of most Diesel engines uneconomic. It would be simpler and quicker to fit a Petrol engine.


2. To mix LPG with the existing Diesel fuel before induction (Fumigation, not Conversion)


Various attempts have been made to achieve this with varying amounts of success. Go LPG! have examined many systems and installations and after much consideration have come to this conclusion;

Overall, the Savings are Not Huge...

None of the LPG / Diesel mix systems examined have resulted in Diesel consumption being reduced by more than 25%. Those savings made must also have LPG costs (for the LPG that replaces some of the Diesel fuel consumed) subtracted from that 25% saving. This results in final savings of only the low teens of %, or thereabouts.

There are other problems to consider as well - The unmodified Diesel engine was relatively slow-revving, producing its maximum torque at lower RPM than a similar Petrol version. This is not the case when it is converted to run on Diesel and LPG mix. The revised engine has to'rev' more when running on Diesel / LPG mix because its maximum torque will have been moved higher up the rev. band. This can bring new problems of reliability and longevity. The crankshaft, bearings and connecting rods (to mention but a few components) were all designed to rev. at a lower rate. These components will suffer much higher stresses (stress increases at the square of RPM) at the increased RPM necessary to get sufficient torque when running on LPG. Mechanical breakdown may result in far less time, whilst increased wear and reduced component life are certain. Given the low overall savings achieved (to date) and the cost of the adaption ( often equal to that of an injected Petrol engine conversion) many miles would have to be covered before any real savings are realised whilst reliability has been reduced. This does not seem to be an economically viable alternative.*

* Summer 2008 - We keep an open mind.

As world Diesel prices continue to rise sharply, there may be more economic benefit in mixing LPG with Diesel. We are still waiting to see a system that works well and comes with audited figures for reliability and the cost savings achieved. If such a system comes along, with UK LPG accreditation, we'll do some long-term evaluation before a decision is made to offer it to our customers.



Benefit becomes Burden

There are some other benefits apart from saving fuel cost.

The Diesel engine becomes quieter and more responsive when using the LPG / Diesel mix. The classic Diesel 'Knock' can be greatly reduced. The main reason for increased smoothness and reduced noise (vibration) is that the LPG element begins its combustion before the Diesel fuel does, a result of 'detonation' due to the compression ratio being so high. The engine may also get up to its optimium temperature more quickly, whilst harmful emissions like Particulates and Carbon Monoxide can be reduced. These all appear to be benefits.

Sadly, a new set of problems arise when the Driver begins to use the increased performance of an engine that wasn't designed to rev to the new, higher levels. As a result of this apparent improvement in performance, one of the best attributes of the Diesel engine (relative longevity and reliability) is dramatically reduced by the Diesel / LPG adaption.

Conclusion

On a purely fuel cost-reducing basis this adaption or fumigation system does not appear to be an attractive or useful alternative for the average Diesel motorist. That doesn't mean that the people working on these projects should stop, we hope they succeed. Perhaps their research will continue and go on to give us all a better solution.

Overall Conclusion

Above it has been shown that niether true conversion of a Diesel engine nor the mixing (Dual fuelling, Fumigation) of LPG with Diesel give economic benefits large enough to make either choice worthwhile for the average motorist. With current LPG and Diesel technology as it stands, it would be more economical to simply remove the Diesel engine and fit a Petrol equivalent, which answers our original question -

'Can Diesel engines be converted to run on LPG?'

The answer, to date, is a qualified 'No'.


http://www.go-lpg.co.uk/diesel.html

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« Одговори #263 на: 27 Април 2011, 15:41:17 pm »
LP, добри 3 години се поминати одкога е објавен тој текст кој си го копи-пејстувал. Денес се други иновациите, можностите, достигнувањата и развојот на тоа поле...

Цитат
What if there was a system that could be fitted to your diesel 4WD, light commercial, campervan or light truck that could not only provide more power and torque but give better economy and cheaper running costs? What if this system also extended range and reduced the black exhaust plume?

What if this system also cleaned your engine internally, and kept the engine oil cleaner for longer?

So, a system that provides up to 20% more power and torque, provides up to a 20% reduction in fuel costs, increases range by up to 20%, reduces engine wear, reduces black plume other emissions?

What? Surely this is impossible?

Until now, yes. However, an LPG injection system for diesel engines, developed in Australia, does all of this, no question.

ALL DIESEL/GAS INSTALLATIONS
COME WITH A 3 YEAR PARTS, LABOUR
& ENGINE WARRANTY   
Цитат
What does it do?



This gas injection system utilises a sophisticated computer module that controls the flow of LPG into mechanical and electronic diesel engines whether stationary or mobile, turbocharged or naturally aspirated.

The system operates by simultaneously burning diesel with a small quantity of gas resulting in a more efficient burn rate of 95%-98% (most diesel engines achieve around 75-85%). This increase in the burn rate results in less diesel being used to create the same outcome.

Best of all, no engine modification is required, the system is non-invasive, operates completely independently, is simple to fit and can be fine-tuned to your requirements.




 How does it work?



High-pressure liquid petroleum gas (LPG) is converted to a low-pressure (just above atmospheric) useable gas. The gas passes through a solenoid valve (or stepper motor) which is controlled by outputs from the system’s computerised processor measuring precisely the quantity of gas required. This metered amount of vapour travels through a hose into the vehicle air intake system and subsequently into the inlet manifold as a mixture of air and gas.

The computer module (processor) controls the flow of gas optimising performance and ensuring safety. Manifold pressure (via a MAP sensor) or throttle position (via a throttle position sensor) and engine speed are monitored. The module then adjusts the gas flow depending on engine load and driver demand. The amount of gas injected (or the ‘gas map’) is completely (and only) programmable by a laptop computer. This allows a large degree of flexibility to adjust the system to suit your requirements.

The system does not allow LPG into the engine at idle and is programmed to limit the amount of gas introduced at maximum load to prevent over-fuelling. The system shuts off gas flow when the brakes are applied or the driver’s foot comes off the accelerator.
The system can be switched on and off (if ever necessary) via a dash mounted switch. If gas is unavailable or you run out before a service station, it is not necessary to switch the system off. Instead you will notice a decrease in performance as the gas runs out. Since the diesel injection system is not modified, the vehicle will simply run on diesel as it did prior to the system being fitted.





 Range and fuel savings



As a result of the increased efficiency created by burning more of the diesel injected into the combustion chamber, less diesel is now required to travel each kilometre, therefore extending the range travelled on each tank of diesel. Or, to look at it another way, the same amount of diesel will deliver more power and torque.

Documented evidence indicates net fuel cost savings of 10-20% are achievable running on either bio-diesel or normal diesel. A 4x4 vehicle will use approximately one litre of LPG for every 25-30 kilometres traveled under normal driving conditions. For further explanation, see Economy section.




 Power and Torque



This Diesel/Gas system will increase power and torque by up to 20% (sometimes more). This power increase is due not only to the increased combustion efficiency, but also the LPG itself produces power as it burns. So even the most economical gas map and driving technique will produce some additional power. A more powerful setting can still produce better economy than running on straight diesel.

This extra power is instantly noticeable from the moment the system is turned on. However, as the engine clears carbon deposits over time it is not unusual for the advantages of the system to increase.

Image to the left is of a power run with the Patrol on the Dyno



The power and torque increase applies over the whole rev range. Turbo lag is all but eliminated, and engine noise and vibration is dramatically reduced all the way through to maximum revs. The driver will notice fewer gear changes and higher average speeds, particularly on hills and when towing.

See Vehicles section for examples of power gains.




 Engine Life



For those of you with experience with LPG vehicles, you would know the engine oil stays much cleaner between oil changes. LPG engines, when stripped, are almost spotless internally. On the other hand diesel engines are quite dirty internally and after an oil change the new oil quickly becomes black again.

In a diesel engine this black stain is soot. Soot is the result of incomplete combustion (the same as any wood fire stove). This soot (which is actually carbon) gathers in the combustion chambers, lining the top of the pistons, the injectors, the glow plugs and the valves. Some stays there and builds up into thick carbon deposits that must be scraped away when the engine is stripped. Some is blown into the exhaust manifold, coating the inside of the exhaust pipe or blown out the back as black smoke. The rest is washed off the cylinder walls by the engine oil, thus contaminating it and turning it black. This is why engine oil filtration is critical in diesels.



With enough carbon contamination, oil soon loses its ability to lubricate (viscosity) and clean properly, leaving abrasive deposits on critical components and allowing further carbon build-up. This causes engine wear - hence the need to change the engine oil on a regular basis. Anyone who changes their own oil will tell you that with diesels the oil becomes very black, very quickly. This indicates that the oil is doing its job but it is also already breaking down and losing its effectiveness long before the next oil change is due.

Image above is of Heavily contaminated diesel sump oil after 5000 km

Since LPG is a clean burning gas it does not leave soot behind. This is why the engine and oil stay cleaner for longer. With the Diesel/Gas system cleanliness is achieved slightly differently. The gas introduced acts as a catalyst encouraging a more complete diesel combustion. This means less soot (a lot less soot) which, in turn, means the oil stays cleaner. Now, if the oil is staying cleaner, that means it is not carrying as much contamination, and is therefore doing its job better and for longer. The upshot is reduced engine wear between oil changes and over the life of the engine (which is extended as a result).

Engine operating temperatures are not increased by running this system. Exhaust gas temperatures are reduced, since there is no longer fuel being burnt in the exhaust system.

http://www.dieselgasaustralia.com.au/default.aspx?ID=Technical
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« Одговори #264 на: 27 Април 2011, 15:43:44 pm »
гОЈДО кај керамидница имаш за 37 денари да неидеш до стаклара за пола денар од литро, исто добар плин, може и подобар.

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« Одговори #265 на: 27 Април 2011, 16:08:27 pm »
Interesen update. Ovde poveke se dobiva na performansi i rafiniranost na motorot odkolku zasteda, i sistemot vo golema mera potseka na HHO tehnologijata, znaci vo postoeckata smesa na gorivo i vozduh se vbrizguva tret element, vo slucajov gas za da se dobie podobro sogoruvanje. Ne veruvam deka ke zazivee ovaa tehnologija, dobivkite se merat vo 10-20 % na hartija, vo praksa verojatno se ~5.

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« Одговори #266 на: 27 Април 2011, 16:37:47 pm »
Interesen update. Ovde poveke se dobiva na performansi i rafiniranost na motorot odkolku zasteda, i sistemot vo golema mera potseka na HHO tehnologijata, znaci vo postoeckata smesa na gorivo i vozduh se vbrizguva tret element, vo slucajov gas za da se dobie podobro sogoruvanje. Ne veruvam deka ke zazivee ovaa tehnologija, dobivkite se merat vo 10-20 % na hartija, vo praksa verojatno se ~5.

Хахаха LP вечити опортуниста ;)

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« Одговори #267 на: 27 Април 2011, 17:37:31 pm »
Од плин нема ништо поефикасно и поефтино...прашајте ги Хитлер, Химлер и остала наци мафија...ќе ви го потврдат истото...

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« Одговори #268 на: 27 Април 2011, 17:44:50 pm »
Од плин нема ништо поефикасно и поефтино...прашајте ги Хитлер, Химлер и остала наци мафија...ќе ви го потврдат истото...
Господ здравје да ти даде.

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« Одговори #269 на: 27 Април 2011, 17:58:51 pm »
Од плин нема ништо поефикасно и поефтино...прашајте ги Хитлер, Химлер и остала наци мафија...ќе ви го потврдат истото...
Господ здравје да ти даде.

Во контекст на муабетот.. (ако ја има поставено сликава на форум, јас се извинувам ;D )